Episode 16: Courage, Contentment, And Many Forms Of Excellence W/Mal Terranova

My guest on today’s podcast is Mallorie Terranova. Mallorie is the owner of Jars Of Dust, a pottery manufacturing studio located in Virginia Beach. What is unique about Mallorie is her bravery and “stubborness” to follow her dreams amidst the messaging that “artists cannot make money” and “You will lose your love for it if you make it a business”. In this episode Mallorie details her story of falling in love with the process of making clay and pottery, how she learned that she is not built to be an employee through an experience working in a pottery studio, and how that pushed her to take the leap and build Jars of Dust into a real business. She describes the emotions and experience of opening a storefront, even when the business wasn’t necessarily ready, and how that experience gave her the confidence to take other leaps in the future, including purchasing an entire warehouse to expand the studio. What I loved most about this episode was Mallorie’s wisdom and profoundness around the experience of owning a business- She speaks to fear, courage, contentment, and the fact that excellence can take many forms. She speaks to taking risks, delegating, and stumbling through the business side of things. She speaks to building something bigger than herself, that provides for others, and that is more beautiful than she had anticipated or dreamt of, and how that STILL comes with constant highs and lows constantly coinciding. This episode is a conversation about the heart of entrepreneurship and I can’t wait for you to hear it. So with that introduction, I hope you enjoy this episode of the Self-Employment Success Podcast with Mallorie Terranova.

LINKS

Jars of Dust
PeaceLink Financial Planning

TRANSCRIPT

Leland Gross (00:00.874)

All right, welcome Mallory Terranova to the Self-Employment Success podcast. Thanks, Leland. I'm super excited to be here. I'm really excited for today's episode. I was with someone earlier and said I was recording this and they were like, wow, you're bringing in the big guns. That's ridiculous. That's incredible. So to get started, tell us a little bit about yourself personally and professionally and your business and what it does and where it stands today. Yeah, so I own Jars of Dust, which is a pottery,

I guess like a pottery studio, it's kind of gotten to the point where it's like more pottery manufacturing, but production studio and retail space in store and online. But I started Jars of Dust back in 2015 when I was still in my undergrad at UNC Wilmington. I was studying studio art at the time and kind of concentrating in photography and not really sure what I wanted to do with.

my art skills, but I definitely have like ever since I was young, a very like artistic spirit and kind of like naturally creative. And also very naturally stubborn in the sense of like, was never really able to excel at things that I didn't like. And so that really set the stage for like kind of my whole schooling journey of like, I couldn't really force myself to

either concentrate in something or study something that I wasn't interested in or didn't feel gifted at. And I couldn't just make straight A's because I studied for it. I just was very, I needed to be focusing on the things that made most sense to me. And so it was a little bit of a couple years into college before I was able to really declare my major in studio art. And so.

When that happened, I took a pottery elective one semester and it was the first medium I delved into that was very challenging. Growing up, drawing, painting, photography always kind of came really natural. Not that I was incredible at all of them, but they came naturally. And so when I took pottery,

Leland Gross (02:21.962)

and it was something that really didn't come naturally and was super challenging. It really pressed me to wanna figure it out and get better at it. And so I just started taking as many classes as I could and I became really inspired in the art form because of the element of pottery that is purely functional. And it's this beautiful craft and it creates this beautiful product, but it's also a product that is used on a daily basis.

and serves a function in the home. And so I really went deep into that avenue of pottery and I started kind of like sharing what I was making on Instagram. Instagram was like a really big part of like the beginning of Jars of Dust. It was also like kind of the early days of Instagram too, where I really started to like establish myself and posted pictures of what I was making, shared with friends and I started getting a lot of people just like requesting for certain things.

And it got to a point where it was so much so that I was like, I maybe should, I could probably charge some money for this. And so my entrepreneurial spirit kind of started emerging and I didn't really ever know that about myself up until that point. That you had the entrepreneurial spirit. Yeah. Okay. I do come from two parents that are entrepreneurs. So that was always kind of in the home.

But I never really felt interest in it until kind of like my sophomore, junior year of college when I started selling pottery. And I don't even know if I was like even aware of it at the time, like looking back, I could kind of like see the glimmers of like going in that direction. But I mean, it's not like at that time I was like, I'm gonna start my own business. I was just like. It's gonna be jars of dust. It's gonna be wild success. Right. But I started selling some stuff and just like.

you know, taking cash only. And it got to a point where I was like, okay, well, I think I need to like think of a name or like something to like call this thing that I'm doing. And I coined jars of dust then. And- Where did that come from? Good question. So the name jars of dust comes from the idea of the creation of clay, like mirroring the creation of man in the biblical sense and how-

Leland Gross (04:49.466)

we were created from the dust of the earth. And I really loved that notion because it's very similar with clay where it starts as the dust of the earth and then you add water to it. And the process that it goes through is really compelling in terms of the molding process from the potter passing through the fire of the kiln and becoming stone, as strong as stone. And I loved how that mirrors

I think our like human experience. And I really wanted to like take that into what I was essentially like, whether I realized it or not, like dedicating the rest of my life to, to remember like that notion and to like bring that into what I was doing and what I was creating. That's beautiful. So that's where the name came from. And sometimes I'll think of like even different answers to that question. Like it kind of encapsulates like a lot of different ideas

emotions. But anyways, I graduated. I was like, I want to how do I keep doing this? Like, do I want to keep making pottery? Or is this the end of the road? What do I do? I don't know what I want to do. And my professor was like, get a wheel and get some clay and just like keep making. Even if you can't like fire it, even if you can't finish these pieces, but just like don't stop making because so many people so many gifted people.

gifted potters leave school and they're like, well, that was like really fun. And I'll figure out how to do that one day. But like, as a college graduate, like buying a, you know, wheels can be expensive, kilns are expensive. Buying all that is like super intimidating. And so a lot of people. And the world's saying just go get a job. Yeah. Like go work for somebody and.

art doesn't pay the bills, quote unquote. Yeah, exactly. I was hearing all of that stuff from a lot of different kind of voices. And so, luckily my family was generous and gifted me a wheel for my graduation present. And then I kind of connected the rest of the things together, supplies, materials, and I just kept making. I set up a little studio in my boyfriend, now husband's spare bedroom. And like the...

Leland Gross (07:08.162)

house that him and his roommates were living in and just kind of like boot liked it for a while. And it was, you know, there was definitely seasons and like moments in that process where it was like a very illegitimate pottery studio firing a kill and like in a home in a not safe way. But like I just I just like was very adamant about like continuing this craft. And

ended up getting married in 2016. We moved to Hatteras Island and I had the opportunity to work for another potter on the island and really learned the business side of how to run a pottery studio and have it make money. And that was a super helpful experience to see that it's possible. People can make pottery and make money.

I also learned during that time, that was probably like, I had worked other jobs like through college and like high school and stuff, but that was kind of like my first real experience of like working intimately with a boss and being an adult like in the workplace. And I learned how...

it became very clear to me that I was built to not work for somebody else. And it was like a very uncomfortable thing to realize because I didn't really know what was happening. I was, I would just, it was kind of, I don't know, just like feelings and emotions that were just like, it wasn't clicking with my spirit. That's like a very vague way to put it, but I.

And it was a great experience, but it was just, it became really evident that I'm like, I have something inside of me that doesn't do super well with like being under somebody else and like authority. And I think it's like a blessing and a curse for sure. But that really spurred me on to take the next step, which is PJ and I, my husband decided to move to Virginia Beach after about a year of living in the Outer Banks. And...

Leland Gross (09:24.114)

One, because we really missed having community and friends. And two. The Outer Banks is a quiet place in the winter. Yeah, yeah. And two, I was starting to think more about how do I take jars of dust off of the back burner and make it something that I can focus on full time. And Virginia Beach seemed like a really good kind of unsaturated art realm to kind of quench people's thirst of that. So I moved to Virginia Beach.

And I was like, well, I'm gonna try to do Jars of Dust full-time. If it doesn't work, I can always look for a job, but I need to try, I need to see if it works. And so I never ended up looking for a job since. Wow. And so, yeah, I've been just Jars of Dust since then. It was 2017. Another, it kind of entered into another season of like.

we call it like cowboying it, where like I set up- We've left bootlegging or bootstrapping, now we're cowboying. Yes. Okay. And so like that was, it led to another season of like, well, how do I keep making pottery? Like I have my wheel, I have this like very crusty, rusty kiln, where do I set this up? I didn't want to set it up in my home. We were living in a place that just didn't really have the space for it. But my brother-in-law had kind of like a one and a half.

two car garage space that he wasn't using. And so I set up in there and there was an old bookcase in there that I used as like shelves to put my pottery on and just like made it work. When I first got in there, I didn't even have like a stool to sit on at my wheel, but there was like an old tree stump with like nails in it that I just like sat on as like my work stool. That feels like something that needs to be like painted. Like sitting on the stump.

Yes. Making pottery, with a bookshelf of pottery. I have a great photograph of it that I need to resurface. But it was very humble beginnings, for sure. And then I was in there for a couple of years, a lot of inconveniences in that realm. And then I really desired, I felt the desire to create a space that.

Leland Gross (11:46.63)

I could sell pottery and that it was just like a permanent location where there was like a showroom and a retail space and our studio in the same building where people can see everything being made. And my ideal location was in the alley in the vibe district. And I set that as my goal to get in there. And I didn't really see like a way to get in there. But I was able to connect with the owner of WRV LG.

and he like they owned the block and the real estate in that area and I just started really annoying the heck out of him and just texting him calling him like staying in his ear as much as possible and there was a door that opened that allowed us to move into our retail space that we have now and set up shop in there.

very quickly, it became too small, which was great. That whole transition was a very, like a very important moment for, I think, me and the business because it was like, I went in there with like so much excitement and anticipation, but also so much fear. Cause I was like, I'm officially like, this is public now. Like if this fails, everybody knows. Yeah, this is no longer.

I'm on Instagram and doing this in my brother-in-law's garage. There's now the next level of, quote unquote, legitimacy and saying, all right, yeah, if the door is closed, people will literally see it. And people who don't follow me on Instagram are also going to see my business because they're walking by. And there's probably bigger liability coming along with, with a storefront, I probably need employees. I need...

there's more overhead, so I need to make more money, probably, to make that work. I'm sure that in my head, that feels like a huge transition. Yeah, it was a big transition. And looking back, it seems silly that I would even worry about it because of how much success came from that leap. But in the moment, it was terrifying to step into that realm. And it was not even stepping into it of like,

Leland Gross (14:03.662)

I'm ready, it was stepping into it really not ready and like hoping that I would become ready. And thankfully like we did, but it was definitely a leap of faith in that moment. So that happened, it very quickly became a very small space for us. We started growing rapidly, the team started growing, we started making more pieces than ever. And.

a couple years down the line, we were like, we are busting out the seams. And it got to a point where I couldn't grow the business because of how limited we were in space. I couldn't fit another employee in that space comfortably. And so there was one day where it was like every surface was filled with like a piece of pottery. There was no like I was like working on my computer on the slab roller. It was just crammed. I had.

It was, I bring my dog to work every day and then I got a puppy, coincidentally his name is Cowboy, and so like we're all in this little, it's like 300 square feet studio. Oh my gosh. Yeah, tiny. And so it was one of those days where I was just like, all right, I've had enough and I open up my computer and I just Google Virginia Beach commercial real estate. And I'm like, I don't even know what's gonna come of this. That's such a vague.

search. So vague. Google's like, I don't, there's a lot of that. They're like, do you want a corporate office? Yeah, I just Googled that, scrolled a little bit, found this like super, clicked on a lot of other things, but like, I've essentially found this like super crusty rundown, like mechanics shop warehouse, like right down the street from the shop, two blocks over. Shop is on 19th street. This building was on 15th street.

and clicked on it, kind of had like an interesting feeling about it. My mother-in-law is a real estate agent and I texted her and I was like, can we go look at this place? She got us in like either that day or the day after and it was, we walked into this building and this guy that was occupying it at the time was a Corvette, like strictly Corvette mechanic.

Leland Gross (16:27.158)

And very niche. Yeah, very niche. And then we walk in and from floor to ceiling It's like 14 foot ceilings floor to ceiling Packed with stuff just car parts. Whoa, and there's like this tiny little trail that like you can barely like squeeze through all of the things And it's just jam-packed with like old rusty car parts. There's It's it's gnarly in there

And I'm standing there like, this is perfect. That's awesome. And my husband and his mom are sitting there, and they're like, are you kidding me? And I'm like, no, I can see it. I could just see the vision. And so we ended up delving into a very long journey of attaining this property. And that was kind of like my next moment of like, what am I doing?

And this was kind of like very, like I kept looking back at like the transition of like going, like moving into our retail store. And like in that moment, like the fear and the anxiety of like failure was like so prevalent. But then I was able to like look at that and see how much it yielded and then like take that into like this transition. And I think it like really equipped me with like the courage and the bravery to like take another leap and like trust that.

I've created a business that can sustain it, hopefully. And so we purchased this building and had to do like a pretty substantial renovation to it. And we moved our studio space into there. We kept our retail space in the alley. And yeah, that's kind of where we are at right now. That was a really long-winded answer of how we got started. Hey, that's great. I love it.

There's so many pieces to that. I wish I could go back and ask questions on every part of the story. Yeah. In college, well, you just started with saying, I don't like doing things that I know I'm not gonna excel at. And so I took a pottery class, the one medium that I'm not as good at. You're like, I can do photography, I can do art, but I'm gonna do pottery. The medium that, at that time, was the least comfortable.

Leland Gross (18:50.734)

fell in love with it, started selling it, and kind of did that in college. I'm curious, are you just like going to the college studio, taking their clay, making it, and then selling it? Yes. So. No overhead. Yeah, cost of goods sold is very low when the college is providing it. That's awesome. And then you graduate, and I'm just struck by the, like, you've talked a lot about the anxiety fear mixed with.

the courage and bravery. I'm struck by the college graduate. I want to do this. And obviously you became an employee at some point and then made that jump. But like when you first made the jump into jars of dust full time. So you're like, we're moving back to Virginia Beach. I'm going for this.

what did that look like from a business standpoint? Because you had just learned how to do the business stuff in Hatteras for that year, and now you're here and you're like, well, I love pottery, I'm gonna do pottery, but also that means I need to set up an LLC and business bank accounts and create a P&L and buy stuff. And you know, like all that side of it is oftentimes the part that when you have a craft that you love that you're good at,

You're like, oh, the business side is the worst part of this. So what was that like for you? Not only being a potter, but now a business owner. That element of it, I definitely just stumbled through for a couple of years. And I mean, I'm still stumbling through it. I might always stumble through it, but I'm getting better and better. But that element of it was I did not approach it as like.

somebody that's like, all right, now I need to do this and set up this and put this in place. I was like, I'm gonna make pottery. And then I was like, oh, I think I'm making enough money to where I'm gonna need to pay some taxes. And then I like found an accountant. And I was like, he was like very confused at what I was even trying to do. And I was like, and then he was like, well, you need to set up an LLC because like that.

Leland Gross (21:05.566)

you're a sole proprietor and you're paying more taxes than you need to. And I was like, oh, okay, that's good to know. And so I kind of like that, like I just stumbled through a lot of things and like figured things out from making the mistake of doing it the wrong way. And then like learned that I don't need to do it that way, which is a great way to learn. I kind of wish that like, okay, so for example, both of my parents, I grew up with, you know, entrepreneur parents, my dad owned his.

has owned his own business ever since I can remember. And they were like, Mal, you should really consider at least minoring in business or something. And I was like, no, I need to just do art because that's what I'm good at. That's the only class I could make straight A's in. And now I'm like, well, I wish I took at least one business class because that would have really come in handy. And they've been great. My dad specifically has been a great mentor to me. But at the same time,

I've always, I'm the first born, I need to figure things out for my own. Um, and I've always just kind of like, functioned in that way of like stumbling through it and doing things the wrong way to figure out the right way to do them. And I'm getting better at like, just looking for either connections that I have or relationships that I have so I can just do things the right way first. Um, but I definitely didn't start off that way. And a lot of people think that like,

in order to start a business or to start anything, they have to like know everything to do right. And I it's definitely not true. Yeah, I that's the thing that I'm hearing you and being like, that is just a golden nugget to anybody who's thinking about starting a business is most people don't have it figured out when they start. Most people have a vision for something greater. No one's vision is like I can't wait to start set up an LLC.

you know, the vision is something so much bigger and everyone stumbles through it. But I think people have the fear of like, if I don't do it right, I'm going to go to jail and be, you know, a troll under a bridge and lose everything. And, you know, there are ways that can happen. But typically, if you're just stumbling through and figuring it out earnestly as you go, it's going to be totally fine. And and I'm in your story, I'm struck so much because of the theme of that exactly like.

Leland Gross (23:32.358)

I'm not necessarily ready for this, but I'm going for it. Whether it was moving into the office or to the showroom in the alley, whether it was buying your business, whether it was the building, whether it was figuring out the business aspects. You're like, I don't have it all figured out, but I'm willing to take the next best step and I'm willing to take the leap. I was just thinking recently about this idea of how entrepreneurship and how...

like the spirit of being self-employed requires a healthy balance of confidence and terror. You're like, oh yeah, I need the confidence to believe that this vision is worth it and it's going to be great. And I can't, like you said, I just have to try this. I feel like I've had people in here who have said there's this internal like, I just need to take the leap, you know, that level of confidence with the fear that makes you work your butt off to actually make it happen.

requires both and I'm just struck by that piece of your story is like every step of the way you've had to be like, all right, well, this is terrifying, but it's the next piece of this. It's the next longing of my heart for my business to do. It's just amazing. What? So now, Jars of Dust is very well established, especially in the Virginia Beach community. You are quote unquote the big guns.

And so silly. And so you have your building with the studio, you have the storefront, you know, we've got local restaurants using your pottery. I feel like every home I go into, including my own has jars of dust. What is next in your mind? Like, is there a new next longing for you for jars of dust? Definitely. So yeah, we've

In the past year, once we moved the studio to the warehouse space, we had that old little 300 square foot original studio that we were like, you know, eventually I would love to expand that space into just one big retail showroom and maybe expand into more lifestyle products that go alongside our pottery really well. And I still have that desire one day, but.

Leland Gross (25:55.998)

In the past year, we were just like, well, we don't really have time or money to like renovate this space, to like make it into like one big storefront. But we have kind of this makeshift, like still like the bare bones of like a pottery studio back here. So we started offering classes. And that's not something we've ever offered before. 90% of the people that would come in would say, do you guys offer pottery classes? And we'd be like, no.

And I've always been, I've had experienced teaching classes and I discovered that I'm not a great teacher. And so I really put that off and I was like, that's not the identity of Jars of Dust. That's not something I'm interested in doing or leading. But the demand for it was so evident. And when we had the space for it, I was like, well, and we had the space for it and I had a team established that I could have somebody else to figure out how to do classes. And so...

And then also with the acquiring of a warehouse space, I was like, we need to maybe figure out how to make more money than normal. And so the first thing that I thought of was like, what's a new revenue stream that we could explore? And we decided to go to delve into pottery classes. And so we are using that original small studio space to bring in groups of nine people.

at a time to teach pottery classes, and that has just completely blown through the roof. That's awesome. And so that was my first experience with adding a revenue stream to a business. And it went so well that I'm like, all right, what's another revenue stream? Yeah. All right, give us a few more revenue streams. Yes. And so that was super exciting to see. And it was part of the business that I

I really didn't have a ton to do with it. I have such an incredible team of women that are so great at kind of like taking an idea that I have or a challenge that I put on their plate and making it a reality. And so one of my employees very naturally gifted at teaching and like working around, she kind of spearheaded this pottery class department and that's growing.

Leland Gross (28:17.946)

more and more every month almost. And so that was kind of like the current like next thing that's kind of still going into like potential growth areas. And then the next thing, which is not really something I've really publicized, but I'll share it with you. We, in our warehouse space, we have kind of like.

The space that we occupy is split in half and like one big room, it's a, it's a big room compared to our old studio is like our new studio. But then there's a whole other side equal in space that is, we haven't renovated yet. It's kind of like the phase two of this, of this building that we have. And, um, it is going to have some kind of photo studio in it. Um, one, because like, as a e-commerce,

very active on social media brand, we need a place to create digital creative content. And that is just such a huge part of owning a small creative businesses, photography, video content, communicating our products in a creative way online. And so...

up until now, we've just always kind of like done like little makeshift backdrops and like taking pictures like in studio space and we're getting into a point where like we really need some kind of legitimate photo studio to be able to like rise to where our business has landed. And so there's this really perfect like very naturally lit room in that space that we're going to build into a photo studio.

that'll function great for jars of dust, but I'd also love it to function as maybe a place that like other photographers or brands could rent out in the Virginia Beach area. And.

Leland Gross (30:16.65)

Let me see, what else do I have cooking? Would love to, the other plan for that side of the space is kind of creating, like, I've never had an office. I've never had an office, and so I take meetings like either outside at a picnic table or like in coffee shops and it's definitely, like, I've done interviews with people like.

in just the most inconvenient places. And so we're gonna build out an office space for me to have a private place to meet with employees or future employees or whatever. So that's exciting. And then there's also this nice big commonplace room that I think could maybe be a small event space one day. It could function as our conference room. There'll be a full kitchenette in there.

Yeah, just kind of things like that to like, I think it's really exciting to enter into a phase of business where I'm thinking about making things work smoother, like things that we already have in place, but like how can they go smoother or more efficiently or be more comfortable for my employees or myself? And I've never really been in a phase like that. It's always been like, well, we just gotta make this work. Yeah. And I'm excited at the idea of like,

kind of maybe phasing out of that. I think there's always gonna be an element of that. That's been like a common theme in Jars of Dust of just making it work with what we have. But I am excited to just legitimize different areas and make it make a workplace and like a work culture that's like comfortable and beautiful and aesthetic and creative and all the things. That's awesome. A question that came to my mind.

Leland Gross (32:08.822)

So at this point, you're still making a lot of the pottery, but you have a team, you said, that's also kind of helping with that. Is that right? Yes. So I am currently throwing all of the pieces that are made on the wheel. So that is plates, bowls, and mugs. We have kind of another line of pottery that's hand-built. And those are pieces that are a little bit more organic and kind of...

Perfectly Imperfect and those are made out of slabs of clay. And I have a girl that leads that department. And then I have a girl that does all of the glazing and firing. And then we have marketing and photography. We have order fulfillment, somebody running the showroom, somebody teaching workshops. And so I've essentially like handed off.

almost everything except for like the pieces that need to be thrown on the wheel. And has was that hard at all? Or for some people it is some people it's like I just want someone to do that but to hand off the slap pieces or the photography or the showroom was that ever hard as the creator yourself? I feel like I'm such a control freak that I would be hard for me to delegate. It is very hard. I think it's one of the hardest things for me.

about business ownership and there's certain tasks and areas that really weren't that hard. And then there's a lot of areas because I am like, I want to have control over everything. And I also have like a very perfectionistic side of me. And so that's always a work in progress. Like it's always going to be a work in progress for me to like delegate, hand things off, trust other people with my vision.

Leland Gross (34:02.15)

And that kind of just leads into like, you know, leadership in general, but very difficult for me. An episode that has not aired yet, but has been recorded already is with a couple and they have this book that I started reading after our interview called Let Go to Grow, Doug and Polly White. And so I started reading it and early on they talk about how the owner themselves, the visionary, the person who this is their baby.

can oftentimes become like the first bottleneck in a system because it is so hard to trust other people with your baby or to bring someone in and say, I need you to do this, but in the back of your mind, you're wondering, can you do this better than me? And maybe you can't, but I still need to be freed up. And I just was struck by that in my own business too of like, how many things am I holding on to tightly that I should really say like.

this is not something that the owner of the business needs to be doing. I can delegate this off kind of thing. And so seeing you as such a big team, I'm like, wow, that had to have been so difficult. Yes, it's so difficult, but it's one of the most rewarding things too. And there's a way that I've been able to see other people do it really well, and then other people do it really not well. And what kind of both...

yields. And yeah, it's definitely like us another one of those, like you've got to have some the stomach for it. What would you say is a way that someone does it well? I think a way that somebody can delegate well and, and expand well and gracefully is I think I like your notion of like

the title of that book, Letting Go to Grow. And you have to enter into that with just a level of understanding that nobody else is going to do something the way that I do it. That doesn't mean it's not excellent, but it's going to be different. And I think coming to a point where you can be content with maybe multiple forms of excellence and not just your own form of excellence.

Leland Gross (36:27.254)

And that's something that I'm always kind of like peeling back the layers on and one time I heard I heard a business owner say something like he owned a very large business and he was like I could pick up my phone right now and In two seconds find somebody doing something wrong. Mm-hmm He's like it'd be very easy for me to do that at any point in the day I can find somebody doing something wrong, but he's like that would serve no purpose to me like my

and where I'm most valuable as the owner is to look ahead and to know that every day there's gonna be something that's getting done in a way that maybe you didn't intend for it to be done that way, but there is still growth and opportunity and excellence to be had in trusting and knowing that you're more valuable in other areas. And that's a really hard pill for me to swallow.

because it's also wrapped up in like, well, I'm paying people to do things in the way that I'm asking them to do them. Yeah. But the letting go area of it is like such a wrestling match. And I definitely understand that as long as I'm holding jars of dust with a tight grip, I'm just limiting it so much. I'm limiting my employees. I'm limiting the trajectory of the business, the growth of everything. And so like,

releasing that grip is like a constant battle. And like sometimes I'll go through seasons and I'm like, my grip is tight. And then sometimes I'll go through seasons where like I'm like letting go and it's like a back and forth and I don't think it's like a, once you release your grip once you're done. It's like a constant work in progress. Yeah, I feel like that's an exercise of the heart, which is a muscle and you just gotta keep working it. If you stop working it, it'll atrophy and then you'll be back to like holding it too tightly.

Yeah, I love the words you said, I think is really wise and profound is being okay with multiple forms of excellence. Just because it's not done the way that I do it doesn't mean it's not excellent. It doesn't mean that we didn't arrive at the same destination. And I think that is just really profound. In my own field, the financial advisors ourselves like bicker over what's the best way to do what.

Leland Gross (38:51.254)

this, that, and the other, the best strategies. And at the end of the day, nine times out of 10, studies show if you work with a financial advisor, you're gonna get to retirement successfully. It's like, who cares how you did it? You did it excellently, whether it was this strategy or that strategy. And so that's something that I'm thinking about and just think like from a business perspective, that's so profound, that thought of, excellence can come in a lot of different forms. So what surprised you the most about

this entire journey from college until now, sitting on the stump to owning your own business and expanding with a team, what surprised you?

Leland Gross (39:35.714)

I think the biggest surprise has been... There's so many surprises, honestly.

Leland Gross (39:48.814)

I think one of the biggest surprises is I entered into this journey with a love of pottery and a love of creating and working with my hands and I'm very quickly turned into not my love anymore. So many people told me, if you try to start a business or try to make money with your art, well first of all that's really hard and barely anybody can do it. So like...

probably don't even try. That was like the main narrative. And then the next one was like, and if you do succeed, you're gonna hate it. And it's gonna be like this, it's not gonna be like your love or your hobby, and you're not gonna like doing it anymore because it's gonna be this thing that you have to like keep feeding. And I was like, okay, well, that's great. Dark. Yeah. And I didn't really give much like weight to either of those narratives, but.

And I almost didn't even really believe either of them. I was like, well, I'm gonna prove both of those wrong. And both of them are, I think both of them are true. Definitely people with a very strong artistic skill lack the side of the brain that needs to be used for the logistical side and creating goals and sticking with goals and aiming for something. And...

I entered into it, I think, learning and understanding about myself that I do have both and that I can apply both. But I was really surprised at how, like, I was able to enter into this thing with Pottery is My Love and it changed out of something that I love and am passionate for, but then it kind of, like, shifted focus and I learned that I really loved building this thing that, like, not only

achieves my dreams, but like other people's dreams too. And I never really anticipated that. Like that was never a thought in my mind that I was going to design this machine that is providing for other people and other people's families and would serve as like their dream job and function as this.

Leland Gross (42:10.674)

entity in a community that people are inspired by and love and bring their families to and That I think that was like one of the biggest surprises where I was like I entered into this like not expecting To get to this point and like here I am and I don't even know if I did I don't think I did any of that on purpose um, but it was out of my control and yet it like it has gotten to this point and that's like

so cool and amazing and I love that aspect of it, but then it's also like, it kind of makes my brain like, whoa, why is that? I was like, what is happening? Like it is, I have to pinch myself sometimes and at times I'll forget that perspective. And I'm like just kind of going through the motions and like take it for granted of like all of the things that it's been through and then it's taken me and my husband through, but I really, really love that aspect of it and that's kind of like what.

gets me up in the morning and excited to like keep going. That's amazing. What was the low point for you in the journey?

That's a good question. I think there's definitely a lot of low points.

Leland Gross (43:26.098)

I think... hmmm... I'm trying to think of a specific one.

Leland Gross (43:36.97)

I think there's been, there's a low point so consistent. Like I think there's always, I think I'm always like at a low point in some way, shape or form. But there's always like a high point alongside of it. I don't know if that makes any sense. It does, that's actually like very profound to the entrepreneurial experience. Yeah, it's like this.

notion of like I am entering into, I'm like voluntarily entering into something that is like one side of it is like making me low in spirit and then like but I'm also like taking that and recognizing that because of that like there's great potential, there's equally great potential to be like extremely like delighted and like proud.

And so I think I'm like, I could choose to like.

focus on one or the other. And I think there's people that like focus on like being down and out about like all the struggles and the challenges that come with like owning a business. And then there's people that I think focus too much on like the accomplishments that they've made and striking the balance between like, I'm not perfect, I'm out of control. And this thing is something that

not I'm out of control, but this thing is something that I don't really have all of the control over. And then also taking in the idea that, well, here's how far I've come, and here's all of the successes that have happened, and I have hope for the future, and I'm not gonna let the fear of failure take over fully.

Leland Gross (45:29.81)

I can't really think of like, oh, there was this day or like this moment or this season that was like really low. But I think that there's like so many of them sprinkled throughout that like definitely can be powerful. But like

not overcoming? Well, and I think, well, one, it's a good thing that you don't have this like profound dumpster fire moment in your business. But I think that answer really is incredible because it's true. I mean, when we had Will's Francis on here, he was saying like, every day is the battle of the head trash. Like, this isn't going to work, or this is failing, or this is stressful, or am I good enough? Or will someone pay for this just

There's always this constant low humming along with all of the, this is incredible and this is bigger than myself and this is like, look what this has become. But there is a kind of a constant challenge happening when you aren't just showing up to a job that someone else really cares about that you're just doing the work for, you know? And so like you're taking all the risk, you're providing all the vision. When people have problems, you're like the end point.

to get the answer and so yeah, I just, again, I think that's wise and profound. So this is a podcast about success, but if you ask anybody on the street what that word means, you're gonna get a different answer from each person. So how would you define success and how will you know if or when, or if you have already achieved it?

I've been thinking about that a lot, actually. And when you sent me over that question beforehand, it really spurred me on to really chew on it for a while. And right before, I was sitting in my car in the parking lot and I was like, well, I'm gonna look up the definition of success real quick and just see what the dictionary says about it. And- It's a good place to start. Yeah, and it said something like the accomplishment of an aim or a goal. And-

Leland Gross (47:38.294)

I strong, like my opinion of success differs from that very much so. And I think success for me is not necessarily insinuating an arrival, but like the... The...

the ability to be content in whatever may be like happening around you, a contentness in like any circumstance. I think in my opinion is like what success looks like. And because of that, and if you can recognize that, then like you can enter into the conversation or the journey of like, well, if.

if my aim is to be content in any circumstance, then what kind of things can I do to design my circumstances? And I think for me, I constantly struggle with, okay, once I have this much money, I'll be happy. Or I won't- Just a little bit more. Yeah, I won't be anxious anymore. Or once I have...

this thing or like once our house can have like this new kitchen like then like everything will be good then I'll be at peace um and like the constant chasing and like the grass is always greener mentality like is so sad to think about like your whole life taking that pattern and like reaching for something and then like always discovering that it was like a counterfeit of like what you were actually looking for.

And I think the getting to a place where you're content with no matter what is swirling about around you is like such an evident form of success that like you can't nothing can touch that. You know, nothing can really threaten that. Yeah, if you're able to get to that point, which is like, I'm saying get to that point as in like your

Leland Gross (49:45.886)

arriving at that point, but I don't think there's arrival at that point either. I think it's like a daily a daily Work you know something to you know mold your heart into and Yeah, yeah, I wish that The heart was something that you could just mold it kind of like pottery I wish it was something you could just mold it put it through the kiln and here it is. Yeah, it's shaped But it feels like something that almost stays

malleable like the pottery pre kiln of like, if it's not being shaped, it'll fall apart, or it will, if you're not working on it, it will run its own course. And or it'll fall asleep and life will just sort of happen to you. And so I think that thought of contentment is a daily choice, because daily we have the circumstances that we can use to victimize ourselves or say like,

good enough right now because I just need to graduate or get married or buy a house or have kids or have more kids or the next car, the next thing, the next job, the next raise, there's just, we're fed that. I like that you use the word pattern. Living in that pattern, almost if you're not working against it, that's just the pattern you'll be in. And so success being the daily journey of choosing contentment is really powerful. Yeah, and I think.

I think a lot of people get contentment confused with like apathy and just like think that like, okay, well then hands off, I'm done trying. And then they and then like what you said, like they let life happen to them. And I think, I think it's more complex than that. And I think contentment, like you have more participation in, and you're, I think we're still called to like make goals. And like, and

and like work towards those goals. But basing all of your...

Leland Gross (51:50.594)

happiness and What's the word I'm looking for basing like self-worth yes basing like your self-worth and identity in the achievement of that goal is where like contentness just dissolves and I think I think that's kind of where it gets like Really tricky to for those people to be able to find success is like impossible to them because they're like it's always out of reach Yeah, I

tell my clients or even prospects. I'm like, if your goal alone is just to have more money, you're gonna fire me. You're gonna fire anybody because when we're kind of always in this pattern of like, we just want more, just a little bit more, just that next thing, that's not something we can actually ever achieve. That's not something we can like work towards. And it's just that similar idea of like, if my self-worth is in that next thing and I'm discontent, like.

success, there's no form of success that will be achieved through that. I think you're right. I think success innately requires contentment and being like, I love where I'm at right now. It's a truth. You can almost, with that, the beautiful thing is you can just choose success right now and say, I'm going to choose and work on just being content with what I have. This is awesome. It's amazing.

Well, thank you so much, Mallory, for being on the Self-Employment Success Podcast. This has been an amazing conversation. Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you. Yeah.